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Battler's escape along with the final red truth in ep6 was widely debated back in the day.
One of the more creative theories was that the two guesthouse rooms were connected with a door in between them (like in a hotel). A variation on this theory was that one smaller room was inside the other larger room (coins and cups riddle). Both of these gives Kanon (and Shanon, if you believe in Shkanon) a method for evading the room checks of who was in which room. As for setting the mansion's guestroom's chain lock, general consensus was a death of some sort for Kanon (furniture/personality but not physical). That would allow for both the death of Kanon and a solution to the final red truth with some liberal interpretations.
One other theory was that Erika is a name for more than one person, specifically Kanon and Shannon. What this means is that Kanon and Shannon are Erika. Erika is not Kanon alone. Erika is not Shannon alone. Erika is Kanon and Shannon. So wherever Erika goes, Kanon and Shannon would be there. Well, this should make things quite easy to explain so I will spare you the details.
Well either way, there was some questionably unfair wording especially with the final red truth based on Battler's comment before it was said.
One last method would be... ( this will be a spoiler for the deeper parts of ep6, 7, and 8 )
I'm assuming that when you say you are writing a mystery, that mystery is a fair play murder mystery.
The cleverest murder mysteries that I have read either aim to break most of the rules or to abide by all of the rules.
Usually the bad, cop out, unfair murder mysteries are the ones in between. They break a few key rules that makes it unfair or unreasonable.
The one thing in common though is that all of the best murder mysteries abide by Knox's 8th,Van Dine's 1st+2nd and Carr's 4th, Chandler's 3rd sort of. That's the single rule that guarantees the murder mystery is fair play and can be solved.
I think it would be a good idea also to definitely abide by Knox's 4th and Chandler's 2nd+3rd sort of. Use any poison or device that anybody reading your murder mystery would know without needing to do any research. Using anything else is treading into science fiction land rather than murder mystery.
Try not to take the rules literally, especially Van Dine's. My understanding of the intention, the whydunit behind Van Dine's rules is that he wrote them so that people would stop copying each other. Servants were being overused as the culprit and were automatically suspected by the readers of his time so it was no longer clever to use servants as the culprit in his time hence Van Dine's 11th. Same thing with all of the mentioned cliches in Van Dine's 20th. In other words, Van Dine is telling authors to be original with the whodunit and the howdunit. He wasn't really forbidding the use of servants or those cliches as the whodunit and the howdunit. If the author does use those, then make it so that it's not too easy and obvious to the reader. Same thing applies to Knox's 5th. No chinamen doesn't mean Chinese people are forbidden from committing crimes. My understanding of it is that racial stereotypes are not needed nor allowed to be used for logically reasoning out the whodunit. Just because a person is black doesn't mean the detective can say 'The culprit is the black man because blacks are more prone to commit crimes!'. Depending on where the murder mystery takes place, you could argue that black people are more prone to commit crimes statistically but that's no longer reasoning through logic. It's jumping to a conclusion through racial stereotyping/discrimination.
I sort of don't agree with parts of Chandler's rules because he tries to make the murder mystery seem too much like reality. He doesn't like it when there are too many mysteries piled on top of each other because the chances of that happening in reality is very slim but that's part of what makes a murder mystery so challenging and different from reality. Accidental/coincidental events can't help the detective solve the murder but that doesn't mean accidental/coincidental events can't hinder the detective. Red herrings are fair game in my opinion. But I sort of understand what he means though. Try not to overuse red herrings or it does become a mess.
I think that it's fine to treat the rules as actual rules for new murder mystery authors but for the more advanced murder mystery authors with some experience under their belt, they act more as rough guidelines just to keep the game fair.
To sum it up,
Knox says keep the murder mystery solvable. Van Dine says keep the murder mystery original/clever. Carr says keep the murder mystery challenging. Chandler says keep the murder mystery realistic/feasible.
Oh, btw, do keep in mind that most murder mystery authors, including the creators of these rules, have broken these rules before with their murder mysteries
You look through the mirror to see what you saw You take the saw Cut the desk into two halfs put the two halfs into a hole [whole] and crawl through the hole
Oh hey, I actually kinda like that!
I suppose the only complaints I got is maybe give at least one hint containing the words 'saw' and 'hole' since they are really important to the solution. Maybe a red truth like "You look into the mirror and saw a desk." I dunno how to fit 'hole' into a reasonable red truth though. Not sure if shoving a desk into a hole would help a person to crawl through the hole too since it would make the hole tighter...
Nice play on words haha I was going to propose a theory about how the mirror was part of the wall and large enough for a person to fit through when it is broken.
The desk is unmovable. The desk can be moved but only if split.
You have no tools to help you escape and the room is shaped as a perfect cube. In order to get out of this room you must think of using play on words that will obtain you tools that are unseen.
hmmmmmm In other words, I don't have a single tool to use right now but I can somehow play around with your red truths to get myself some new tools to use.
The desk unsplit cannot be moved but can be moved when split.
The desk has a drawer or some other compartment that I can open and separate from the rest of the desk. I move the desk and find tools that were previously hidden by the desk. Using these tools, I can escape out of the room. If that's not it and you don't have anymore hints for me, then I surrender to sheba the witch
There is a roof on this room, there are four walls and a floor, you have nothing to break the mirror with and the glass is strong enough to with stand human hands, if you intend to break the glass you would need a blunt object. There are no stairs and no one can hear you the walls are sound proof and very strong.
also for trolling purposes...
THERE IS NO WAY TO KILL YOUR SELF!
*Cackle*
But...there is away out of the room
This...th-this is impossible! I-it's a truly impossible room to escape out of!!
Wait a minute...AHA! I see it! Dameda, zenzendameda! It's time for something even more awesome than small bombs!
The room is not completely closed off by the four walls! Or it could be in the shape of a pentagon! There is a clear opening in the wall for me to escape through!
You also haven't dealt with any of my blues concerning the presence of other objects in the room or Kirei's blues concerning the floor and desk!
And I'm not done yet! I have one more blue for you!
I am not trapped in this room alone! There is someone else to help me escape! That person may also have tools or knowledge of their own which may aid in my escape!
It's over now witch!
lol seriously though, I feel completely stumped by this. Good job sheba!
Witches can use blue truth but I don't think they can use it like that.
Blue is used to explain how something is done without the use of magic. It is the murder mystery solver's weapon. If a witch happens to face off against another witch (i.e. ep5 Beato vs Bern), then Beato would be the solver of Bern's mystery so Beato would use the blue to break through Bern's mystery without the use of magic like a regular human would.
Red is meant to set up the grounds of combat between the murder mystery solver and the author. A blue that tries to go against the rules by breaking the reds will not work and be stopped by the red (e.g. Knox's Decalogue). Why would you fight against the grounds of combat rather than the opponent? lol
I will assume that no hidden passage exists to exit this room with, that there are no other objects aside from the mirror and desk in the room, and that I carry no objects of my own.
Might help if you could also define the architecture of the room.
The room has no roof. I climb onto the desk and climb over the wall out of the room.
The room has stairs leading to an exit above/below the room. I take the stairs to leave the room.
There are other people outside of the room. I break the mirror, scream, or smash the desk against the walls to attract their attention and be rescued out of the room.
The walls of the room are made of a weak material. I can simply smash my way through and create my own exit out of the room.
For the lulz: I suicide and become a wandering spirit capable of going through walls. No room could possibly trap me then!
End of Ep4 - showdown between Beato and Battler heart of Beato: Ushiromiya Battler. I will now kill you. And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.
In other words, Will is saying that something real (not some fantastic witch) killed Battler (a real human with a body) despite the person calling herself Beato (Yasu) being dead already at the end of ep4.
Battler only one alive on island/all alone on island = no other person alive on island = Yasu/Beato is not alive on island
That's as simple as I can break it down for you. Only way you could still argue Yasu/Beato is still alive is if you were to say Yasu is something alive that's not a person I suppose. Like a cat? A goat butler? Or maybe a butterfly? Oh yea golden butterflies sure let's go with that rofl
Battler only one alive on island/all alone on island + Battler will be killed by heart of Beato + nothing outside island can interfere = something not alive on island will kill Battler
Therefore, heart of Beato = something not alive on island will kill Battler
Can you think of anything that's not alive that can kill Battler (or a person in general)? A weapon would be one. A bomb would be another to go with the popular theory. Or a volcanic eruption. Tons of things but those two are the more popular ones.
I think you might have rushed through ep4 a bit. Try rereading the question chapters. They hold all of the clues that you need to solve the riddle. Of course, it would take someone as badass as Will to actually be able to do that but at least make sure you've given the question chapters some thought before moving on to the core breakdown chapters. Especially ep7. Bern and Will completely rip apart the whole Beatrice concept and many previous question chapter murders at lightning speed so if you aren't familiar with what happened in ep1 to 4, then I guess you should just give up on the mystery side of umineko and enjoy the fantasy.
How the culprit got into the room: Granted Genji, Shannon, and Kanon had the keys and they didn't give it to anyone or open the door, however it's not impossible for the culprit to steal the key.
Hmmmm be careful about that one there Kirei.
The only keys are in possession of Genji, Shannon, and Kanon.
Definition of POSSESSION 1 a : the act of having or taking into control b : control or occupancy of property without regard to ownership
If you use the word possession, then a thief stealing the key and using it is no longer possible because the thief is now the one in control of the key which will go against your red. Stick with a vaguer, looser term that would still work for the thief next time?
Krauss and Natsuhi were stabbed to death. All the other victims were also stabbed however they were also dismembered and soaked in vinegar. This is legitimate as it is a known substance that actually can corrode meat off of bones (if allowed enough time).
Two slight issues here.
Knox's 8th doesn't like using vinegar and stabbing at the last minute to corrode meat off of bones. You could maybe include some clues about the vinegar at the crime scene (e.g. maybe a quarter full jug of vinegar along with a full bottle of ketchup, mustard, etc. on the small table? Or maybe describe the 'strange odor' coming from the room as a sour odor. Also mention some cutlery including knives being set on the table perhaps.)
Knox's 4th doesn't like using vinegar to corrode meat off of bones because, well, people don't normally cook meat that way lol and it would actually require some understanding of how acids work. That's treading a wee bit into chemistry land and I would totally complain about it being unfair if I have not studied acids or vinegar before. And actually, if you were to dip the victims into a vat of highly concentrated vinegar, there wouldn't be much meat left. Acids eat away at the meat, not separate the meat from the bones. But I suppose you could somehow work around that...
Kanon, Shanon and Genji are the only ones who have keys to Kinzo's room, one of them open the door for him or herself.
But none of them gave their keys to anyone nor opened the door for anyone on the island. Anyone = every single person on the island (i.e. that includes Kanon, Shannon, and Genji!)
By the way how could the victims get into the room?if the servants didn't open the door for anyone.
Simple - Kirei's solution and my theories already cover that. You're just not reading now are you? Oh wait, you were talking about the victims. I thought you meant the culprit.
So for the victims to get into the room, I guess they would have to open the door themselves and walk in. It's not like the door was closed all the way for sure so they didn't have to require a key/servant to open it up. Or they could have possessed the keys before giving the keys to the servants. There's probably more ways but I'm too tired to think any more.
Maybe no one was killed in Kinzo's room! the culprit just put them in there sometime after he(or she) kill them.
Well then the victims had to have been killed somewhere else on the island. There weren't any blood stains, signs of struggle, etc. found anywhere else on the island except for Kinzo's room. There were no trails of blood to indicate that their bodies had been moved or dragged to Kinzo's room.
You could argue that Kumasawa, Rudolf, Rosa, Hideyoshi were killed and 'corroded' in a giant vat of vinegar on the spot so no blood stains and such would have been found but then you'd have to fight against Knox's 8th.
And what about Natsuhi and Krauss? Those two could not have been corroded. There'd be some trace of their death since it's a stabbing. Again, you'd have to fight against Knox's 8th to account for no signs of death being found anywhere else outside of Kinzo's room.
Lastly, how would the culprit put the bodies into the Kinzo's locked room if everyone was killed outside? You could argue that the door was not closed all the way in the first place which is just another minor variation of my theory.
Or you could argue that only Krauss and/or Natsuhi were killed inside the locked room so either one of them could have opened the door to let them in which is, again, another minor variation of one of my theories.
Or you could argue that an accomplice was involved. Someone other than the six victims and the servants was already inside the room to start with. This sounds plausible. I like this theory.
But how would that be earth to earth? Battler didn't actually die in your case. Amnesia does not equate to dying. And how in the world would Yasu make Battler lose his memories? Give him a hard bonk on the head with a pan? Oh wait, Yasu's dead. So a ghostly Yasu giving Battler a hard bonk on the head. Hah that's as awesome as small bombs lol
Sorry wrong Knox. Knox's 4th It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.
How do you even know my trap is going to be hard to understand when I haven't even told you what it is yet??? I just told you it was Knox's 8th lol
Actually, I have a suggestion for you Kirei. You could also mention the type and number of wounds on the victims. That could rule out traps and other indirect methods of killing to make your locked room murder even more awesome!
The culprit could get out of Kinzo's room it has already been show how it could be done by Battler in EP 5.
If you mean jumping out the window then that is actually just some bs that Battler made up to defend Natsuhi. Notice how Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games? Kinzo doesn't exist. There was no Kinzo to jump out of the second floor window (Kinzo's room is actually on the third floor, not second, but the point still stands). No real, live person could jump out from that window and suffer absolutely no injury. Same case applies here. You could suggest a ladder or some tool for helping the culprit to get down from the window but Knox's 4th and 8th prevent you from doing that.
The culprit could waited for the door to be open by someone, then walk in behind them without making any sounds.
But nobody could have opened the locked door from the outside so there would have been nobody for the culprit to walk behind to enter Kinzo's room. The only keys are in possession of Genji, Shannon, and Kanon. None of them gave their keys to anyone nor opened the door for anyone on the island.
And if you're saying the locked door was actually opened from the inside, then that means it's the same as theory#3.
If you mean the door was never locked/closed all the way, then why would the culprit even need to wait for someone to open the door to enter after them?
The culprit hide in Kinzo's Room before the victims came into the room, waited for the right moment then killed them all. The culprit then made his way out of the Locked Room threw the window.
How did the culprit get into the room? How could the culprit get out from the window without getting hurt when it's so high up? Why not just use the door??? lol
All of the victims were killed and are in plain sight of the detective. All of the victims are dead, as confirmed by the detective.
Both theories #3 and #4 are accepted. Are you ready to know my truth of the scenario?
So theory#1 has been rejected then? hmmmm Culprit either entered with someone's help inside the room or the door was not closed in the first place before the murders happened. Ok, please give me your answer. Hope I wasn't too far off lol
The personality know as "Battler" was "killed" in a sense of the word by Yasu/Shannon/Beatrice
Wait wait wait Will never said that!
Ep7 Clair: Fourth game, ninth twilight. And none shall be left alive. Will: Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth. Clair: Who...am I? (Reference to Beato's heart at end of ep4) Will: Illusions...to illusions. The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will.
Will doesn't suggest anything about Battler being just a personality that was cast off hence earth to earth. If Battler did not own a real, physical body of his own then it would have been an illusions to illusions. The illusions to illusions parts are referring to the heart of Beato and how Beato the witch is believed to be the culprit because there are no survivors that talk about it, only the fantastic message bottles written by Beato herself that are left behind.
End of Ep4 - showdown between Beato and Battler heart of Beato: Ushiromiya Battler. I will now kill you. And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.
In other words, Will is saying that something real (not some fantastic witch) killed Battler (a real human with a body) despite the person calling herself Beato (Yasu) being dead already at the end of ep4.
The personality know as "Battler" was "killed" in a sense of the word by Yasu/Shannon/Beatrice
Wait, are you trying to say Battler is another personality of Yasu/Shannon/Kanon/Beato/Gaap/Clair? That's pretty messed up but I'd like to hear your reasoning.
hehe so all six of them are in Kinzo's room and seen by the detective. By seen, does that mean the detective has confirmed that all six of them are indeed dead? All missing are definitely dead but they have been found by the detective so I'm not sure they could still be called missing. My hiding culprit theories still hold if at least one of them are just playing dead. Also, may I assume the detective has thoroughly searched Kinzo's room? Since the detective has found all of the victims, I could just say no hiding culprit was found inside the room right?
So I guess Genji, Shannon, and Kanon are not involved with these murders at all which also means the keys were not involved in the murders which means theory#2 is down the drain. Theories#1 and 3 still hold since they do not require a servant/key to gain entry into the locked room.
Which brings me to my fourth theory...
Theory#4 The door to Kinzo's room was not closed/locked before the murders took place. The culprit entered the room and hid inside Kinzo's room, waiting to ambush the six dead/missing people. The culprit did his/her killings. The culprit then left the room.
Theory#4b Same as theory#4 except the culprit set up traps to kill the six dead/missing people.
Hmmmm that red is kind of sloppy. By anyone, do you mean anyone else aside from Genji, Shannon, and Kanon or actually everyone that's on rokkenjima? The keys were not given to anyone and only Genji, Shannon, and Kanon possess a key to the door are kinda contradictory so that definition of anyone should probably be cleared up.
Might wanna also confirm that the four missing people (Kumasawa, Rudolf, Rosa, Hideyoshi) are indeed dead.
Also, just as a cautionary measure but when you say "Once inside, you see a small table set up. You find both Natsuhi and Krauss sitting on either end etc etc", does 'you' refer to a detective/a person who cannot be the culprit?
I'm not sure if your gameboard is the same as the official umineko one so is Kinzo dead way before these murders happen? I mean, it is Kinzo's room so if the old fart's alive, he would most certainly be in his own room and could be involved in these murders.
I'm guessing that you are playing fair so the general rules like Knox's Decalogue, and Van Dine's Twenty rules apply right?
I'm sure you can confirm all of the above in red. Now that the boring stuff is out of the way, let's get on with the juicy bits.
Theory#1 The culprit entered Kinzo's room together with the six people that are dead or missing. Once inside, the culprit did his/her killings. Then the culprit moved the four missing bodies (Kumasawa, Rudolf, Rosa, Hideyoshi) to a location in Kinzo's room that 'you' did not check. Then the culprit exited Kinzo's room and, remembering to have good manners, closed the door behind him/her
Theory#1b (only works if one of the four missing people are not dead) Same as theory#1 except the culprit is one of the four that are missing, hiding inside a location in Kinzo's room that 'you' did not check. The culprit never left Kinzo's room after the murders were done.
Theory#2 (only works if 'anyone' refers to everyone except for Genji, Shannon, and Kanon) The culprit is one of the servants with the key to Kinzo's room. The culprit entered the room with the key before the six dead/missing people entered. The culprit hid inside Kinzo's room, waiting to ambush the six dead/missing people. The culprit did his/her killings. Then, the culprit moved the four missing bodies to a location in Kinzo's room that 'you' did not check. The culprit then left the room.
Theory#2b Same as theory#2 except the culprit chose to hide and never left Kinzo's room after the murders were done.
Theory#2c Same as theory#2 except the culprit set up traps to kill the six dead/missing people. The culprit was hiding inside Kinzo's room, waiting for the six to die from the traps. Afterwards, the culprit moved the four missing bodies to a location in Kinzo's room that 'you' did not check. The culprit then left the room.
Theory#2d Same as theory#2c except the culprit chose to hide and never left Kinzo's room after the murders were done.
Theory#2e Same as theory#2c except the culprit set up the traps before the six dead/missing people entered the room and left the room after the traps were set. Then, the culprit returned to the room after the murders were done.
Theory#3 Same as theory#2 except the culprit entered the room after the six dead/missing people entered. Someone inside Kinzo's room opened the door to let the culprit into Kinzo's room. The culprit left Kinzo's room after the murders were done.
Theory#3a Same as theory#3 except the culprit chose to hide and never left Kinzo's room after the murders were done.
I will stick with these three lines of thinking for now. I have no idea what those bones under the table are for but maybe Kinzo had a dog and those bones were regularly brought in by the servants to keep the dog entertained?? lol wtf am I saying...
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